I have been watching (with some interest) what google (and others) has been doing with flat designs (google’s material design is a good example). I also find it funny that design is again repeating it’s selfs - sort like skinny ties vs wide ties. In the past we only had flat design (windows 3.1, the first x servers are examples) and everyone wanted the 3d effect. Shadows and bevels provided the 3d effects on our monitors. And of course now everyone is excited about flat designs.
So my question is has anyone done anything with the look of wxPython controls? Is there a simple way to produce the flat design look?
I have been watching (with some interest) what google (and others) has
been doing with flat designs (google's material design is a good example).
I also find it funny that design is again repeating it's selfs - sort like
skinny ties vs wide ties.
I, for one, really dislike the flat look, such as what the Windows
"metro"/8 tiles show, or yes the Google Materials (which I wasn't aware of
until now, thanks...sort of). It seems to be sold as looking "cleaner", but
I find it to have no personality and just looks boring and unpleasant, and
often seems, at least for me, visually harder to work with than more
skeuomorphic designs (since there is probably less visual identifying
information from an all-white shape on a background than a
shaded/multi-color/glinted shape on that background). For some coverage,
see: http://www.fastcodesign.com/3028944/is-flat-design-already-passe
In the past we only had flat design (windows 3.1, the first x servers are
examples) and everyone wanted the 3d effect. Shadows and bevels provided
the 3d effects on our monitors. And of course now everyone is excited
about flat designs.
Not everyone.
So my question is has anyone done anything with the look of wxPython
controls? Is there a simple way to produce the flat design look?
In the AGW widgets, there is at least FlatNotebook and FlatMenu, and
PlateButton and ButtonPanel have some flat aspects, arguably. But mostly
wxPython is using native controls, so if the native controls have a
bevel/3D aspect to them, wxPython will look like that. If they don't, it
won't. I'm pleased how it all looks on WinXP and Win7...and less happy with
it on Win8. Haven't tried Linux in a while and have never seen it on Mac.
···
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 5:51 PM, John Fabiani <fabiani.john@gmail.com> wrote:
I’m glad you said something. This is a terrible disease.
I’ve been in this business for a very long time. My first Windows
driver was for the Windows 3.0 beta, and I was doing operating
system work for mainframes prior to that. I’ve seen a lot of user
interface trends come and go. Sometimes, it just seems like
programmers who don’t have enough work to do go invent something
cool, and I think we know that most programmers suck at user
interface design.
At one point, Microsoft invested millions of dollars in usability
labs, where they watched users of all experience levels work with
their products. They based their designs on real, measurable,
quantifiable results. It seems like all of that has gone out the
window, and we’re back to “programmers without enough work to do”.
The most egregious recent example is the idiotic decision by
Microsoft to put the menu items in ALL CAPS for Office 2013 and
Visual Studio 2013. I can’t imagine what moron made that decision.
There are many, many university studies that show our eyes are able
to grasp words in mixed case easier than ALL CAPS.
Even Apple has this disease. I “upgraded” my MacBook Air from
Mavericks to Yosemite, and the icons now have the flat look. I
don’t think it’s an improvement.
It is interesting to note, however, that even quantifiable
information sometimes leads you astray. Microsoft has telemetry
information in Windows that reports usage statistics back to them,
like how many times you do certain operations, how long you look at
menus before choosing, etc. It was those statistics that told them
people didn’t use the Windows 7 start button, and that was the basis
for the decision to remove it in Windows 8. What they have learned
since is that, even though it wasn’t used all the time, it was the
comfortable fallback tool. People wanted to know it was there.
Hence, it’s back in the Windows 10 Technical Previews.
google (and others) has been doing with flat designs
(google’s material design is a good example). I also
find it funny that design is again repeating it’s
selfs - sort like skinny ties vs wide ties.
I, for one, really dislike the flat look, such as what
the Windows “metro”/8 tiles show, or yes the Google
Materials (which I wasn’t aware of until now,
thanks…sort of). It seems to be sold as looking
“cleaner”, but I find it to have no personality and just
looks boring and unpleasant, and often seems, at least for
me, visually harder to work with than more skeuomorphic
designs (since there is probably less visual identifying
information from an all-white shape on a background than a
shaded/multi-color/glinted shape on that background).
It’s true that flat design is not my idea of the best UI. That said, I do like the visual feedback of Polymer - for example the paper button when selected sort of flashes (not a good word to describe the look but it’s hard to describe). And of course Polymer is a material/flat design. I’m not saying that the 3d look did not provide a visual clue - I just like the Polymer feedback better.
So I gather from the discussion that on windows 8/10 OS the wxPython controls will appear to be flat?
Johnf
···
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 4:22 PM, Tim Roberts timr@probo.com wrote:
C M wrote:
-- Tim Roberts, timr@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
I'm glad you said something. This is a terrible disease.
I've been in this business for a very long time. My first Windows
driver was for the Windows 3.0 beta, and I was doing operating
system work for mainframes prior to that. I’ve seen a lot of user
interface trends come and go. Sometimes, it just seems like
programmers who don’t have enough work to do go invent something
cool, and I think we know that most programmers suck at user
interface design.
At one point, Microsoft invested millions of dollars in usability
labs, where they watched users of all experience levels work with
their products. They based their designs on real, measurable,
quantifiable results. It seems like all of that has gone out the
window, and we’re back to “programmers without enough work to do”.
The most egregious recent example is the idiotic decision by
Microsoft to put the menu items in ALL CAPS for Office 2013 and
Visual Studio 2013. I can’t imagine what moron made that decision.
There are many, many university studies that show our eyes are able
to grasp words in mixed case easier than ALL CAPS.
Even Apple has this disease. I "upgraded" my MacBook Air from
Mavericks to Yosemite, and the icons now have the flat look. I
don’t think it’s an improvement.
It is interesting to note, however, that even quantifiable
information sometimes leads you astray. Microsoft has telemetry
information in Windows that reports usage statistics back to them,
like how many times you do certain operations, how long you look at
menus before choosing, etc. It was those statistics that told them
people didn’t use the Windows 7 start button, and that was the basis
for the decision to remove it in Windows 8. What they have learned
since is that, even though it wasn’t used all the time, it was the
comfortable fallback tool. People wanted to know it was there.
Hence, it’s back in the Windows 10 Technical Previews.
–
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “wxPython-users” group.
google (and others) has been doing with flat designs
(google’s material design is a good example). I also
find it funny that design is again repeating it’s
selfs - sort like skinny ties vs wide ties.
I, for one, really dislike the flat look, such as what
the Windows “metro”/8 tiles show, or yes the Google
Materials (which I wasn’t aware of until now,
thanks…sort of). It seems to be sold as looking
“cleaner”, but I find it to have no personality and just
looks boring and unpleasant, and often seems, at least for
me, visually harder to work with than more skeuomorphic
designs (since there is probably less visual identifying
information from an all-white shape on a background than a
shaded/multi-color/glinted shape on that background).
wxPython uses the native widgets and the current theme, so if the native widgets in Windows 8/10 are flat, then wxPython will look that way too. The thing you need to keep in mind is that the core widgets of wxPython are using the actual native widgets on the target OS, instead of drawing the widgets like PySide/Qt and Tkinter does. wxPython does have custom widgets too, but those are typically in wx.lib.
Mike
···
On Thursday, December 18, 2014 7:43:07 PM UTC-6, johnf wrote:
It’s true that flat design is not my idea of the best UI. That said, I do like the visual feedback of Polymer - for example the paper button when selected sort of flashes (not a good word to describe the look but it’s hard to describe). And of course Polymer is a material/flat design. I’m not saying that the 3d look did not provide a visual clue - I just like the Polymer feedback better.
So I gather from the discussion that on windows 8/10 OS the wxPython controls will appear to be flat?
So I gather from the discussion that on windows 8/10 OS the wxPython
controls will appear to be flat?
No. The native controls haven't changed. That would be too disruptive
to existing applications. However, buzzword-compliant ultra-cool new
modern applications wouldn't even dream of using the native controls.
That's another huge mistake in current user interface trends. The new
tools make it so easy to do fancy custom user interfaces that every is
doing their own, which means a new user sitting down for the first time
has no clue how to operate an application. I have 40 years of deep
experience in the computer business, but there are several applications
on my tablet that I have no idea how to control, and there's no way to
discover it. I'm sure they are proud of their clever and compact icons,
and "hold and slide" modifiers, but if I have to have a document to get
anything done, the user interface designer has FAILED.
(I'm talking to you, MobileSheets...)
···
--
Tim Roberts, timr@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
OK thanks everyone - so if the native controls are not a flat design on windows 8/10 - does anyone have any thoughts as to how I can create them?
Johnf
···
On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Tim Roberts timr@probo.com wrote:
John Fabiani wrote:
So I gather from the discussion that on windows 8/10 OS the wxPython
controls will appear to be flat?
No. The native controls haven’t changed. That would be too disruptive
to existing applications. However, buzzword-compliant ultra-cool new
modern applications wouldn’t even dream of using the native controls.
That’s another huge mistake in current user interface trends. The new
tools make it so easy to do fancy custom user interfaces that every is
doing their own, which means a new user sitting down for the first time
has no clue how to operate an application. I have 40 years of deep
experience in the computer business, but there are several applications
on my tablet that I have no idea how to control, and there’s no way to
discover it. I’m sure they are proud of their clever and compact icons,
and “hold and slide” modifiers, but if I have to have a document to get
anything done, the user interface designer has FAILED.
You will need to create some custom widgets. Take a look at the AGW library. It has the FlatNotebook in it and FlatMenu. They are pretty good examples.
Mike
···
On Friday, December 19, 2014 12:01:46 PM UTC-6, johnf wrote:
OK thanks everyone - so if the native controls are not a flat design on windows 8/10 - does anyone have any thoughts as to how I can create them?
Johnf
