[wxPython] Licensing. Grrr.

Hello,

I'm about to make a Linux/Windows release. I'm going to GPL
the code under Linux, and see no problems, because they'll
just have to have Python and wxPython installed already.

If use an installer for Windows that has the Python
and wxPython dlls along with my code, does this mean the Windows
version can't be GPL'd because of the wxWindows license and
Python license? If I can't GPL it, what's my alternative? Can
you include Python + wxPython + your own code and license it under
the wxPython license?

As I understand it, from version 1.6x on, Python can't be included
with GPLd software.

And I thought coding would be the most difficult part of this
project!

  Rob Cakebread

···

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Hello,

I'm about to make a Linux/Windows release. I'm going to GPL
the code under Linux, and see no problems, because they'll
just have to have Python and wxPython installed already.

If use an installer for Windows that has the Python
and wxPython dlls along with my code, does this mean the Windows
version can't be GPL'd because of the wxWindows license and
Python license? If I can't GPL it, what's my alternative? Can
you include Python + wxPython + your own code and license it under
the wxPython license?

You can have your code under whatever license you want (wxPython
license, or otherwise).

As I understand it, from version 1.6x on, Python can't be included
with GPLd software.

According to rms, the Python license for versions 1.6 and 2.0 are
"incompatible" with the GPL.

And I thought coding would be the most difficult part of this
project!

  Rob Cakebread

My own opinion (though I'm not a lawyer):

    If you want the software to be open, useful, and freely available,
    just say so. Don't bother with restrictions that only cause
    headaches (such as declaring other licenses to be incompatible
    with yours, blah blah). The Mahogany team had a long discussion
    about this because someone wanted to use M sources in another
    project, but the Artistic license was "incompatible"

    For my own stuff (when I get around to making something useful
    ;-)) I will probably just make up my own license that says
    something to the effect of
        o be reasonable with redistribution (ie
            don't charge exorbitant fees, etc)
        o this is provided as-is without warranty
        o don't take undue credit
        o let users/clients know where to find help and updates

:slight_smile:

-D

···

On Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 06:31:28PM -0500, robc wrote:

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        o be reasonable with redistribution (ie
            don't charge exorbitant fees, etc)

I don't understand the purpose of restricting sales of free software (as in
GPL). Seems like people would generally prefer the free copy to the
expensive copy assuming that it is easy to install and the download site is
highly visible, (unless they want to pay for service, easier installation,
etc.).

It is my understanding that I can sell Python for $5000 per copy if I want
to. Any takers? 50% off for students!

Send Visa or MC number to: suckers@ultrapython.com
I will send you the secret url where you can download Python.

This is a limited time offer! Hurry!

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "D-Man" <dsh8290@rit.edu>
To: <wxpython-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: [wxPython] Licensing. Grrr.

On Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 06:31:28PM -0500, robc wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm about to make a Linux/Windows release. I'm going to GPL
> the code under Linux, and see no problems, because they'll
> just have to have Python and wxPython installed already.
>
> If use an installer for Windows that has the Python
> and wxPython dlls along with my code, does this mean the Windows
> version can't be GPL'd because of the wxWindows license and
> Python license? If I can't GPL it, what's my alternative? Can
> you include Python + wxPython + your own code and license it under
> the wxPython license?

You can have your code under whatever license you want (wxPython
license, or otherwise).

>
> As I understand it, from version 1.6x on, Python can't be included
> with GPLd software.

According to rms, the Python license for versions 1.6 and 2.0 are
"incompatible" with the GPL.

>
> And I thought coding would be the most difficult part of this
> project!
>
> Rob Cakebread
>

My own opinion (though I'm not a lawyer):

    If you want the software to be open, useful, and freely available,
    just say so. Don't bother with restrictions that only cause
    headaches (such as declaring other licenses to be incompatible
    with yours, blah blah). The Mahogany team had a long discussion
    about this because someone wanted to use M sources in another
    project, but the Artistic license was "incompatible"

    For my own stuff (when I get around to making something useful
    ;-)) I will probably just make up my own license that says
    something to the effect of
        o be reasonable with redistribution (ie
            don't charge exorbitant fees, etc)
        o this is provided as-is without warranty
        o don't take undue credit
        o let users/clients know where to find help and updates

:slight_smile:

-D

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Is there really a problem? I went and looked at the license
    files in my Win32 installations:
    
         - wxPython: wxWindows is distributed under the LGPL with
           the explicit exception that you may "you may use, copy,
           link, modify and distribute under the user's own terms,
           binary object code versions of works based on the Library."

         - BeOpen Python 2.0: Version 1 of the license says
           that you are allowed to "prepare derivative works, distribute,
           and otherwise use the Software alone or in any derivative
           version" subject to preserving the license file and all
           that.

    So if you distribute your Python source code along with binaries
    of Python 2.0 and wxPython, then there should be no problem at
    all, right? The GPL only applies to *your source code*, not the
    whole installer package.
    
    Y.

···

On Thursday, February 15, 2001 at 5:31:28 PM, robc wrote:

I'm about to make a Linux/Windows release. I'm going to GPL
the code under Linux, and see no problems, because they'll
just have to have Python and wxPython installed already.

If use an installer for Windows that has the Python
and wxPython dlls along with my code, does this mean the Windows
version can't be GPL'd because of the wxWindows license and
Python license? If I can't GPL it, what's my alternative? Can
you include Python + wxPython + your own code and license it under
the wxPython license?

As I understand it, from version 1.6x on, Python can't be included
with GPLd software.

_______________________________________________
wxPython-users mailing list
wxPython-users@lists.sourceforge.net
http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wxpython-users

If use an installer for Windows that has the Python
and wxPython dlls along with my code, does this mean the Windows
version can't be GPL'd because of the wxWindows license and
Python license? If I can't GPL it, what's my alternative? Can
you include Python + wxPython + your own code and license it under
the wxPython license?

I'm not a license lawyer, (or any kind thank goodness) so you'll have to
take everything I say here as just a common-sense interpretation. (Which,
if some evil diety hadn't invented lawyers, would be all that mattered
anyway. <wink>)

The wxWindows/wxPython license is LGPL with the exception that you can
deliver your application however you want. With source or without, with
bean sprouts or with peanut butter, whatever. So it is GPL compatible as
long as you deliver or make available your source.

For the Python CNRI license it depends on who you talk to. CNRI's lawyer
(and several others from what I hear) say it's GPL compatible. The FSF's
lawyer says it isn't because of the arbitration in Virgina clause. Since
there seems to be no right lawyerly answer and since 99% of Python
developers and users don't understand laywers anyway, (and probably don't
want to,) let's do a common sense interpretation:

1. Python is free.

2. Python source code is free.

3. You can use Python to develop any kind of application that you want and
can do what ever you want with it (serve with bean sprouts or peanut
butter...)

4. You can do whatever you want with the Python source code, including
embedding in your own application, change all the breaks to gotos, or
forking off your own language and making a zillion bucks from it.

5. The only thing you can't do is blame CNRI if something goes wrong, and if
you decide to blame CNRI anyway then you have to do it in a court in
Virgina. Big deal.

Sounds pretty dang GPL compatible to me.

···

--
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Software Craftsman
robin@AllDunn.com Java give you jitters?
http://wxPython.org Relax with wxPython!

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> o be reasonable with redistribution (ie
> don't charge exorbitant fees, etc)

I don't understand the purpose of restricting sales of free software (as in
GPL). Seems like people would generally prefer the free copy to the
expensive copy assuming that it is easy to install and the download site is
highly visible, (unless they want to pay for service, easier installation,
etc.).

If I make some useful software, and provide it for free, I would feel
bad for the poor user who got suckered into paying thousands of
dollars for it. I think it just kind of goes along with giving the
appropriate credit.

It is my understanding that I can sell Python for $5000 per copy if I want
to. Any takers? 50% off for students!

Send Visa or MC number to: suckers@ultrapython.com
I will send you the secret url where you can download Python.

This is a limited time offer! Hurry!

I don't know if the Python license allows or disallows this. If in
this offer, you stated/hinted/implied/etc that this was the only way
to get python, and didn't let your customers know that it was created
by someone else and they also provide it, then you are being very
dishonest. If you charge such fees, but also let people know it can
be obtained from other sources then its not so bad. Better just to be
reasonable with it. Sure, in legal terms "reasonable" is too vague,
but I don't want to be explicit and thus restrictive in this
situation. More like being a conscience ;-).

-D

···

On Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 05:56:23PM -0600, Ken Seehof wrote:

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I wrote a Python/wxPython/PIL based package which is being used by a number of my coworkers and will be made available on the Internet. The thing I wonder about and still am not clear about is what exactly should I put in my "Help->About" dialog to acknowledge my use of wxPython and the copyright. The best I could figure from reading the license agreement was as follows:

wxPython and wxWindows
Copyright © 1999 by
Robin Dunn for wxPython and
Julian Smart, Robert Roebling, Vadim Zeitlin
and other members of the wxWindows team

Several questions:

1. Do I need this at all?
2. If I do need something, do I need to mentions wxWindows as well as wxPython? Or will mentioning wxPython only, suffice?
3. What should the copyright mention say, exactly?

Bob

···

At 06:31 PM 2/15/2001 -0500, you wrote:

Hello,

I'm about to make a Linux/Windows release. I'm going to GPL
the code under Linux, and see no problems, because they'll
just have to have Python and wxPython installed already.

If use an installer for Windows that has the Python
and wxPython dlls along with my code, does this mean the Windows
version can't be GPL'd because of the wxWindows license and
Python license? If I can't GPL it, what's my alternative? Can
you include Python + wxPython + your own code and license it under
the wxPython license?

---------------------------------------------
Robert B. Klimek
NASA Glenn Research Center
---------------------------------------------

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If I make some useful software, and provide it for free, I would feel
bad for the poor user who got suckered into paying thousands of
dollars for it. I think it just kind of goes along with giving the
appropriate credit.

If somebody can re-package a program that I wrote in such a way that it is
worth thousands of dollars to somebody - more power to them. Nobody
loses. I don't lose, because I wasn't trying to make money with the
program anyway. The third part doesn't lose, because they felt that it
was worth the thousands that they spent. The second party, of course, won
big time. But him winning does not make me a loser.

This is not a criticism, just an alternate point of view.

···

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>
> If I make some useful software, and provide it for free, I would feel
> bad for the poor user who got suckered into paying thousands of
> dollars for it. I think it just kind of goes along with giving the
> appropriate credit.
>
If somebody can re-package a program that I wrote in such a way that it is

                                                                  ^^^^^^^^^^

worth thousands of dollars to somebody - more power to them. Nobody

  ^^^^^

If it is really worth that, then they are being reasonable, right?

:slight_smile:

loses. I don't lose, because I wasn't trying to make money with the
program anyway. The third part doesn't lose, because they felt that it
was worth the thousands that they spent. The second party, of course, won
big time. But him winning does not make me a loser.

This is not a criticism, just an alternate point of view.

No problem.

-D

···

On Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 08:24:03AM -0700, C. Porter Bassett wrote:

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wxPython and wxWindows
Copyright � 1999 by
Robin Dunn for wxPython and
Julian Smart, Robert Roebling, Vadim Zeitlin
and other members of the wxWindows team

Several questions:

1. Do I need this at all?
2. If I do need something, do I need to mentions wxWindows as well as
wxPython? Or will mentioning wxPython only, suffice?
3. What should the copyright mention say, exactly?

As far as I am concerned the above is sufficient, although it's been a while
since I read the licence so I'm not sure what it might require.

I saw a screenshot a day or so ago, (that of course I can't find now and I
don't even remember who sent the link or if it came to this list or one of
the wxwindows lists...) that showed an About box with an interesting
approach. At the bottom they had "Powered by:" and then a logo/image from
the Python, wxWindows and wxPython web sites. Now if clicking on those
images would open a browser to the appropriate web site it would be very
cool!

···

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Software Craftsman
robin@AllDunn.com Java give you jitters?
http://wxPython.org Relax with wxPython!

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I think that depends on what you're distributing with it.
Do they just depend on Python/wxPython, or are you actually
shipping it with those included?

Uh oh. I just noticed the ".gov" in your email. Maybe someone
else can answer. :wink:

Quoting Bob Klimek <klimek@grc.nasa.gov>:

I wrote a Python/wxPython/PIL based package which is being used by a

number

of my coworkers and will be made available on the Internet. The thing I
wonder about and still am not clear about is what exactly should I put

in

my "Help->About" dialog to acknowledge my use of wxPython and the
copyright. The best I could figure from reading the license agreement

was

···

as follows:

wxPython and wxWindows
Copyright � 1999 by
Robin Dunn for wxPython and
Julian Smart, Robert Roebling, Vadim Zeitlin
and other members of the wxWindows team

Several questions:

1. Do I need this at all?
2. If I do need something, do I need to mentions wxWindows as well as
wxPython? Or will mentioning wxPython only, suffice?
3. What should the copyright mention say, exactly?

Bob

At 06:31 PM 2/15/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I'm about to make a Linux/Windows release. I'm going to GPL
>the code under Linux, and see no problems, because they'll
>just have to have Python and wxPython installed already.
>
>If use an installer for Windows that has the Python
>and wxPython dlls along with my code, does this mean the Windows
>version can't be GPL'd because of the wxWindows license and
>Python license? If I can't GPL it, what's my alternative? Can
>you include Python + wxPython + your own code and license it under
>the wxPython license?

---------------------------------------------
Robert B. Klimek
NASA Glenn Research Center
---------------------------------------------

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> wxPython and wxWindows
> Copyright © 1999 by
> Robin Dunn for wxPython and
> Julian Smart, Robert Roebling, Vadim Zeitlin
> and other members of the wxWindows team
>
> Several questions:
>
> 1. Do I need this at all?
> 2. If I do need something, do I need to mentions wxWindows as well as
> wxPython? Or will mentioning wxPython only, suffice?
> 3. What should the copyright mention say, exactly?

As far as I am concerned the above is sufficient, although it's been a while
since I read the licence so I'm not sure what it might require.

That's good enough for me.

I saw a screenshot a day or so ago, (that of course I can't find now and I
don't even remember who sent the link or if it came to this list or one of
the wxwindows lists...) that showed an About box with an interesting
approach. At the bottom they had "Powered by:" and then a logo/image from
the Python, wxWindows and wxPython web sites. Now if clicking on those
images would open a browser to the appropriate web site it would be very
cool!

Would be cool indeed! Perhaps a future addition to the demo :slight_smile:

···

At 08:55 AM 2/16/2001 -0800, you wrote:

---------------------------------------------
Robert B. Klimek
NASA Glenn Research Center
---------------------------------------------

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Umm, that might have been me :), check out the third screenshot
    on myparo.sourceforge.net. BTW, are those logos enough or should
    I be adding copyright info also as the original poster asked?

    That is done using wxHTML. Is it possible to do what you
    suggested using that widget?
    
    Y.

···

On Friday, February 16, 2001 at 10:55:02 AM, Robin Dunn wrote:

I saw a screenshot a day or so ago, (that of course I can't find now and I
don't even remember who sent the link or if it came to this list or one of
the wxwindows lists...) that showed an About box with an interesting
approach. At the bottom they had "Powered by:" and then a logo/image from
the Python, wxWindows and wxPython web sites. Now if clicking on those
images would open a browser to the appropriate web site it would be very
cool!

_______________________________________________
wxPython-users mailing list
wxPython-users@lists.sourceforge.net
http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wxpython-users

Ken Seehof writes:

I don't understand the purpose of restricting sales of free software (as in
GPL).

Er..., neither does RMS, apparently--there is no such restriction written
anywhere in the GPL. Actually, you're not talking about a sales fee for
software (because you're not talking about transferring ownership of
software; in the USA, I believe that there is also an annullment of all
`ownership' rights upon initial sale of something [the traferral of
ownership is -total-], so you can't legally limit resale, so
`software-vendors' don't sell their software, just the media on which it is
recorded, and they *license* it), but the GPL does explicitely state that
anyone can charge a copying-/distribution- or support-fee for GPL'd
software.

This is how a lot of `Linux' vendors make their money....

···

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robc writes:

Hello,

I'm about to make a Linux/Windows release. I'm going to GPL
the code under Linux, and see no problems, because they'll
just have to have Python and wxPython installed already.

If use an installer for Windows that has the Python
and wxPython dlls along with my code, does this mean the Windows
version can't be GPL'd because of the wxWindows license and
Python license?

No, it doesn't.
As the copyright holder and the licenser, *you* can do apply any license
that you want, even one that says "no one AT ALL can do ANYTHING with this
software", and not have to worry..., unless you're afraid of getting sued
by yourself, which would be, to say the least, very strange....

Basically, the licenser of the software isn't bound by the terms of the
license, because he doesn't need to give a license to himself.

Anyone *else* who receives a copy of the software with that license,
however, *does* need to adhere to the terms of the license.

Before Qt was GPL'd, while the KDE project's code was distributed with the
GPL, the problem that you're afraid of actually happened:
KDE binaries and Qt binaries--two packages with conflicting licenses--were
distributed together. The only vendor really allow'd to distribute that
combination was the KDE team itself.

If I remember correctly, RMS's and Debian's suggestion was they the KDE
team simply write, as one of the terms of their license, something to the
effect of:
"You are explicitely granted permission to combine, compile, link, and
redistribute this [KDE] code with that of the Qt GUI library".

Again: since you are the licensor, you can give anything that you want as
your licensing terms. I'd recommend something like:

"This software (whateverit'scalled) is distributed under the terms of the
GNU General Public License, along with permission to combine and
redistribute it with Python".

There are examples of such `modified GPL'ing' (like GUILE's license) on the
GNU license-list page:
http://www.gnu.org/philosphy/license-list.html

···

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> I saw a screenshot a day or so ago, (that of course I can't find now and

I

> don't even remember who sent the link or if it came to this list or one

of

> the wxwindows lists...) that showed an About box with an interesting
> approach. At the bottom they had "Powered by:" and then a logo/image

from

> the Python, wxWindows and wxPython web sites. Now if clicking on those
> images would open a browser to the appropriate web site it would be very
> cool!

    Umm, that might have been me :), check out the third screenshot
    on myparo.sourceforge.net.

Yes, that's the one.

BTW, are those logos enough or should
    I be adding copyright info also as the original poster asked?

As long as it's obvious where the technology comes from it's fine with me,
but I can only speak for wxPython. To be safe it wouldn't hurt to put a bit
more information there.

    That is done using wxHTML. Is it possible to do what you
    suggested using that widget?

Yes. Derive a class from wxHtmlWindow and provide a OnLinkClicked method.
It should be called when any link in the window is click on, then you can
use the webbrowser module in Python 2.0 to launch an external web browser to
go to the URL.

···

--
Robin Dunn
Software Craftsman
robin@AllDunn.com Java give you jitters?
http://wxPython.org Relax with wxPython!

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