Hi all,
My question is very simple. By developping SPE I noticed that Mac users have strong opinion on the look and feel of GUIs. I wonder how the mac users on this list feel about AUI:
- eg. the aui notebookctrl instead of the standard aqua control
- how things can be moved around
- ...
Does it feel like a Mac? Would it turn off Mac users? I just want to hear some opinions especially from convinced Mac users, so I do not intend flame wars. For example when I start using Andrea's NotebookCtrl, I got complaints it did not feel like a Mac. There would be no solution for it, unless you give the user the option to between the two controls but that is extra work.
Stani
Textmate doesn’t use the aqua control either…
If is sexy enough people wouldn’t mind… so… a little gradient here… a little round close button there… everything should be just fine…
My 2c
Peter.
···
On 2/24/07, Stani’s Python Editor spe.stani.be@gmail.com wrote:
Hi all,
My question is very simple. By developping SPE I noticed that Mac users
have strong opinion on the look and feel of GUIs. I wonder how the mac
users on this list feel about AUI:
eg. the aui notebookctrl instead of the standard aqua control
how things can be moved around
…
Does it feel like a Mac? Would it turn off Mac users? I just want to
hear some opinions especially from convinced Mac users, so I do not
intend flame wars. For example when I start using Andrea’s NotebookCtrl,I got complaints it did not feel like a Mac. There would be no solution
for it, unless you give the user the option to between the two controls
but that is extra work.
Stani
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There is NO FATE, we are the creators.
Hi Stani,
Hi all,
My question is very simple. By developping SPE I noticed that Mac users have strong opinion on the look and feel of GUIs. I wonder how the mac users on this list feel about AUI:
- eg. the aui notebookctrl instead of the standard aqua control
- how things can be moved around
- ...
Does it feel like a Mac? Would it turn off Mac users?
In terms of Mac support, the issue for me isn't really the 'style' of the tabs, it's actually the use of tabs for multiple documents. In terms of document editors on Mac, nearly all of them provide an option to open each document in a new window, and many of them default to that. The reason this is important is because on Mac, users are used to being able to position and arrange documents so that they can quickly switch between them, or also compare documents, etc.
The fact that most cross-platform IDEs don't support this is essentially what keeps driving me back to Mac-specific IDEs, even if a wxPython editor might have more Python-specific features available. TextWrangler has nice features like a file comparison mode (essentially a visual diff) that really aren't possible unless you can align windows side-by-side in the interface.
I just want to hear some opinions especially from convinced Mac users, so I do not intend flame wars. For example when I start using Andrea's NotebookCtrl, I got complaints it did not feel like a Mac. There would be no solution for it, unless you give the user the option to between the two controls but that is extra work.
Well, I think the solution here is to do what wxWidgets does best - encapsulate the differences into a class/framework, so that one person does the extra work and everyone benefits from it. The PyDocView framework in wxPython already has a start on this - it has document manager classes for MDI (which IMHO should be replaced by AUI) and tabbed modes, but what Mac really needs is an "SDI" mode - where each document gets a top level window to it, and each 'palette' window pops up in a wxMiniFrame. Furthermore, it should be user-configurable (though default to the most common setup on that platform).
I actually have started working on something like this, as I'm writing an app right now that I want to be very Mac native, and when I do write it I will make it reusable, as I did with SizedControls. I've just been really busy over the past month working on some other things. I know I still need to look into Phillippe's PyPlugin code, but I hope to be able to start tackling these other things soon!
Regards,
Kevin
···
On Feb 24, 2007, at 5:59 AM, Stani's Python Editor wrote:
Stani
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Kevin Ollivier wrote:
Does it feel like a Mac? Would it turn off Mac users?
In terms of Mac support, the issue for me isn't really the 'style' of the tabs, it's actually the use of tabs for multiple documents.
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!
In terms
of document editors on Mac, nearly all of them provide an option to open each document in a new window, and many of them default to that. The reason this is important is because on Mac, users are used to being able to position and arrange documents so that they can quickly switch between them, or also compare documents, etc.
This is critical on non-mac platforms to. Maybe Windows users are use to painfully crippled interfaces, but *nix users are (*emacs ones anyway) are used to being able to put different docs in different windows.
Like Kevin, this is a primary reason I have yet to use a single wxPython built editor with any regularity. On any platform.
TextWrangler has nice features like a file comparison mode (essentially a visual diff) that really aren't possible unless you can align windows side-by-side in the interface.
Well, a visual diff is often a special case, supported by a whole new view (like Eclipse does it). However, there are plenty of other reasons to need to see files side by side, and I want to be able to arrange them however I please, not JUST side by side.
This is on of the primary reasons why I'm excited about the Peppy editor project. Stani, If you're re-doing your UI with AUI, I do hope you'll work with Rob and Peppy.
OH, and I"m not convinced that even if you need a way to switch between files shown in a Panel that a notebook is the way to do it. See the TextWrangler example, among others.
> Mac really needs is an "SDI" mode - where each
document gets a top level window to it, and each 'palette' window pops up in a wxMiniFrame.
Which isn't really SDI either -- I don't know a good name for it. However, the best option really is to have a mixture. I'm often working with ten or more files, and what I want is maybe two or three in their own frame. So you need to have multiple files in one frame, and multiple frames. Much like Firefox or Emacs, or TextWrangler, or Peppy.
Firefox is a good model to follow, as lots of folks with be used th that. However, it's a bit too rigid about a given page being in only one Frame. For an editor, I'd like to be able to get a complete list of ALL the open files at any time, and open a given one in any frame.
I actually have started working on something like this,
Kevin, you should see what Rob is doing with Peppy too. I'm hoping to help with the Mac port, but it'd be great to have someone that really knows what he's doing work on it.
-Chris
···
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Christopher Barker wrote:
Kevin Ollivier wrote:
> Mac really needs is an "SDI" mode - where each
document gets a top level window to it, and each 'palette' window pops up in a wxMiniFrame.
Which isn't really SDI either -- I don't know a good name for it.
In another life I called it MDMFI (Multiple Document, Multiple Frame Interface) but that was at a job where there was an acronym for everything. 
However, the best option really is to have a mixture.
I agree, and that's how I use emacs. I typically have one instance of emacs running for each project I am currently working on, each on its own virtual desktop (and multiply that by 3 to count the platforms I am actively using.) Within each instance of emacs I usually have at least 4 (but maybe up to 8 or 10) frames open, and possibly dozens or more files loaded at once. In each frame I can cycle between loaded files as needed.
···
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Software Craftsman
http://wxPython.org Java give you jitters? Relax with wxPython!
Christopher Barker wrote:
Kevin Ollivier wrote:
Does it feel like a Mac? Would it turn off Mac users?
In terms of Mac support, the issue for me isn't really the 'style' of the tabs, it's actually the use of tabs for multiple documents.
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!
In terms
of document editors on Mac, nearly all of them provide an option to open each document in a new window, and many of them default to that. The reason this is important is because on Mac, users are used to being able to position and arrange documents so that they can quickly switch between them, or also compare documents, etc.
This is critical on non-mac platforms to. Maybe Windows users are use to painfully crippled interfaces, but *nix users are (*emacs ones anyway) are used to being able to put different docs in different windows.
Wingware Python IDE has a built-in mode to work this way. Works on all 3 platforms.
Personally I despise working this way so I never use that mode. Give me tabs any day. But to each his own.
Michael
In terms of Mac support, the issue for me isn't really the 'style' of
the tabs, it's actually the use of tabs for multiple documents.
One of the cool things I accidentally discovered about AUI tabs is
that you can split them without your code knowing anything about it.
In writing peppy, I was willing to accept just a single tabbed panel
in the center of the AUI manager, but the AUI notebook can split
itself into an arbitrary number of panes as well. So, not only do you
get the firefox tabs, but you get multiple panes of tabs in a single
window with no extra work. I was excited.
Well, I think the solution here is to do what wxWidgets does best -
encapsulate the differences into a class/framework, so that one
person does the extra work and everyone benefits from it. The
PyDocView framework in wxPython already has a start on this - it has
document manager classes for MDI (which IMHO should be replaced by
AUI) and tabbed modes [...]
I looked at the DocView framework, but it was tied to the single top
level window assumption. Also, there was no provision for changing
the menubar or toolbar based on the editing mode that you were in.
This was quite a while ago, so I can't recall the other reasons it
wouldn't work for the emacs style approach I was going for. But, I
know there were some...
So, I did start from scratch to write the peppy framework, and I don't
mean to suggest that it's going to take over the world, but it may be
useful to look at. 
I'm certainly interested in suggestions if
nothing else, and Chris has already given me a bunch of help on the
Mac support.
Basically, it is designed to have low coupling so that extensions like
major modes, minor modes, and sidebars are easy to write and don't
stomp on each other's toes. My goal was to encapsulate everything
about a particular extension in one place, so you didn't have to edit
a bunch of different files to add support for your new feature. A
trac plugin is used as a factory for generating your extension
objects, and it's all discovered at runtime.
Rob
···
On 2/25/07, Kevin Ollivier <kevino@theolliviers.com> wrote: